{ "items": [ { "type": [ "h-entry" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Wrapping My Head Around Webmentions Pt 2" ], "author": [ "Ton Zijlstra", "Ton Zijlstra" ], "category": [ "microformats", "webmention" ], "url": [ "https://www.zylstra.org/blog/2018/07/wrapping-my-head-around-webmentions-pt-2/", "https://www.zylstra.org/blog/2018/07/wrapping-my-head-around-webmentions-pt-2/" ], "in-reply-to": [ "https://www.svenknebel.de/posts/2018/7/4/", "https://www.zylstra.org/blog/2018/07/wrapping-my-head-around-webmentions/", "http://diggingthedigital.com/Een-korte-update-over-microformats/" ], "updated": [ "2018-07-07T16:23:58+02:00" ], "published": [ "2018-07-07T16:23:58+02:00" ], "content": [ { "html": "

I very much appreciate how Sven Knebel extensively responded to my previous posting on some Webmention issues I came across. Some of his responses do make me have new questions.

\n

About the wrong URL, i.e. not the source of the webmention, showing up in a Webmention, Sven writes:

\n

\u2026. There\u2019s a href=\u201dhttps://news.indieweb.org/nl\u201d class=\u201du-syndication\u201d as the only top-level link inside his post, and no explicit url property set. This causes the microformats parser to assume that this link points to the canonical location of the post, and it is thus used for comment display. This seems like a problem with the microformats specification, and I\u2019ll follow up on it there, but for now the easy fix would be for Frank\u2019s posts to mark up their permalink, e.g. by adding a class=\u201du-url\u201d to the link on the headline.

\n

To me this reads as a vulnerability. I would expect my site to always take the source from the webmention message as URL. That is the only one that has been checked from my end for the presence of a reference to my site (the target). If the source page is allowed to set a different URL, even by mistake like here, that feels extremely counterintuitive. It opens it up to spam. In this case the faulty link is to a benign site, but it could have been pills or malware. It is also strange to me that my server in the comments table of the database correctly stores the source url, but in the meta data table stores a url at the discretion of the source\u2019s website. (Meanwhile Frank has fixed it for now on his end as demonstrated by his webmention to my previous post, but my point remains)

\n

About no content being shown of the blogpost that links to my blogposts Sven says:

\n

\u201cThis is intentional. Frank\u2019s post only mentions your post (=includes a link to it), it is not marked up as an explicit reply. Only replies are shown with content, since for mentions this is often misleading.\u201d

\n

This to me doesn\u2019t make a lot of sense. [update: and for my site at least it isn\u2019t true either, I linked back as an explicit reply to my own posting, but it still shows it as a mention].
\nThere is indeed a difference between a direct reply to something (@Frank\u2026.) and mentioning that something as part of something else (As Frank says\u2026.). Yet that doesn\u2019t warrant a difference in presentation, where a reply would be shown, yet for a mention just the address of the site. It also gives the source control over how something is shown on my site (by setting a different microformat for a link), while I do not have that control.
\nFrom the perspective of the reader of my blog it is not enough to only see that \u2018some site links to this blogpost\u2019 to click on that link to find out if it might be of interest, it is tremendously helpful to see a piece of that referring page to determine the context in which it refers to my blogpost.

\n

Most if not all of my mentions of others\u2019 blogposts aren\u2019t meant as a direct response but as building or continuing on a line of reasoning, riffing off other people\u2019s ideas. This is the way distributed conversations take place, how ambient humanity is established. Distributed conversations are a fundamental part of blogging to me. It\u2019s not back and forth replies, it\u2019s a jam session. To enjoy the jam session, you need to see the whole band at a glance, not just a list of the line-up while listening to a sole musician. Discoverability and serendipity flow from it.
\nIt used to be that trackbacks did precisely that, show the context in which someone else referred to my blogposts. It is enriching my own posts to show that context underneath them. See below how that looked a long time ago, in a post on information strategies from 2005.

\n

Three trackbacks on an old post of mine, showing context of the linking blogpost
\n\"\"
\n\"\"
\n\"\"
\nThese three posts are not in response to me, but reflections triggered by my posts and extensions of my contribution

\n

So I\u2019d definitely want to show that context for webmentions. What strikes me as odd now is how little control I have over how the Webmention and Semantic Linkbacks plugins actually deal with webmention data. The stuff I\u2019d like to show is stored in my database, but I can\u2019t through the plugins determine how that is shown.
\nThe same is true on the flipside: my site adds microformats so others can machine read my blog, but apparently it doesn\u2019t do it right. Yet I have no control from the mentioned plugins interfaces over how that is done, nor do I have documentation / insight into how the plugins are designed to comply with microformat specifications. So the next step is: read up on microformat specifications, and dive into the code of the plugins to see where it does what, and whether I can change that in ways that won\u2019t be simply overwritten with the first update of WordPress or the plugins. [UPDATE: I installed a different WordPress Theme, called Sempress, as it should be better at adding the correct microformats for this site]

", "value": "I very much appreciate how Sven Knebel extensively responded to my previous posting on some Webmention issues I came across. Some of his responses do make me have new questions.\nAbout the wrong URL, i.e. not the source of the webmention, showing up in a Webmention, Sven writes:\n\u2026. There\u2019s a href=\u201dhttps://news.indieweb.org/nl\u201d class=\u201du-syndication\u201d as the only top-level link inside his post, and no explicit url property set. This causes the microformats parser to assume that this link points to the canonical location of the post, and it is thus used for comment display. This seems like a problem with the microformats specification, and I\u2019ll follow up on it there, but for now the easy fix would be for Frank\u2019s posts to mark up their permalink, e.g. by adding a class=\u201du-url\u201d to the link on the headline.\nTo me this reads as a vulnerability. I would expect my site to always take the source from the webmention message as URL. That is the only one that has been checked from my end for the presence of a reference to my site (the target). If the source page is allowed to set a different URL, even by mistake like here, that feels extremely counterintuitive. It opens it up to spam. In this case the faulty link is to a benign site, but it could have been pills or malware. It is also strange to me that my server in the comments table of the database correctly stores the source url, but in the meta data table stores a url at the discretion of the source\u2019s website. (Meanwhile Frank has fixed it for now on his end as demonstrated by his webmention to my previous post, but my point remains)\nAbout no content being shown of the blogpost that links to my blogposts Sven says:\n\u201cThis is intentional. Frank\u2019s post only mentions your post (=includes a link to it), it is not marked up as an explicit reply. Only replies are shown with content, since for mentions this is often misleading.\u201d\nThis to me doesn\u2019t make a lot of sense. [update: and for my site at least it isn\u2019t true either, I linked back as an explicit reply to my own posting, but it still shows it as a mention].\nThere is indeed a difference between a direct reply to something (@Frank\u2026.) and mentioning that something as part of something else (As Frank says\u2026.). Yet that doesn\u2019t warrant a difference in presentation, where a reply would be shown, yet for a mention just the address of the site. It also gives the source control over how something is shown on my site (by setting a different microformat for a link), while I do not have that control.\nFrom the perspective of the reader of my blog it is not enough to only see that \u2018some site links to this blogpost\u2019 to click on that link to find out if it might be of interest, it is tremendously helpful to see a piece of that referring page to determine the context in which it refers to my blogpost.\nMost if not all of my mentions of others\u2019 blogposts aren\u2019t meant as a direct response but as building or continuing on a line of reasoning, riffing off other people\u2019s ideas. This is the way distributed conversations take place, how ambient humanity is established. Distributed conversations are a fundamental part of blogging to me. It\u2019s not back and forth replies, it\u2019s a jam session. To enjoy the jam session, you need to see the whole band at a glance, not just a list of the line-up while listening to a sole musician. Discoverability and serendipity flow from it.\nIt used to be that trackbacks did precisely that, show the context in which someone else referred to my blogposts. It is enriching my own posts to show that context underneath them. See below how that looked a long time ago, in a post on information strategies from 2005.\nThree trackbacks on an old post of mine, showing context of the linking blogpost\n\n\n\nThese three posts are not in response to me, but reflections triggered by my posts and extensions of my contribution\nSo I\u2019d definitely want to show that context for webmentions. What strikes me as odd now is how little control I have over how the Webmention and Semantic Linkbacks plugins actually deal with webmention data. The stuff I\u2019d like to show is stored in my database, but I can\u2019t through the plugins determine how that is shown.\nThe same is true on the flipside: my site adds microformats so others can machine read my blog, but apparently it doesn\u2019t do it right. Yet I have no control from the mentioned plugins interfaces over how that is done, nor do I have documentation / insight into how the plugins are designed to comply with microformat specifications. So the next step is: read up on microformat specifications, and dive into the code of the plugins to see where it does what, and whether I can change that in ways that won\u2019t be simply overwritten with the first update of WordPress or the plugins. [UPDATE: I installed a different WordPress Theme, called Sempress, as it should be better at adding the correct microformats for this site]", "lang": "en-us" } ], "comment": [ { "type": [ "h-cite", "h-entry" ], "properties": { "summary": [ "Yes, totally trusting the claimed url is a potential issue, and e.g. my own webmention handling code only allows it for a whitelist of trusted services like brid.gyi, where I know they intentionally pretend to be a different domain. I\u2019m not involved with the WordPress plugins and their development, so I don\u2019t know what rules those follow here.\nRegarding the mentions vs replies, they have to be clearly distinguishable to avoid misunderstandings (see e.g. this example from the Indieweb wiki for how it can go badly), and since it isn\u2019t clear how important a mention is, many prefer to have them displayed as compact as possible. That said, if you prefer it differently I\u2019m sure the plugin devs will add an option for you or tell you what to modify if you ask them for help.\nFrom my understanding, neither the Webmention nor the Semantic Linkback plugins are responsible for setting up microformats markup for your page, they merely add some aspects of it that are part of their responsibilities. Ideally, this is handled by the theme, and there is the microformats plugin which attempts as good as it can to inject the correct markup, but is limited in what it can do. The Indieweb chatrooms (available via IRC, Slack or a web interface) are probabably the best way to get help with that. I\u2019m happy to help figure out what\u2019s wrong with markup, but don\u2019t know enough about WordPress to directly help fixing it." ], "name": [ "Yes, totally trusting the claimed url is a potential issue, and e.g. my own webmention handling code only allows it for a whitelist of trusted services like brid.gyi, where I know they intentionally pretend to be a different domain. I\u2019m not involved with the WordPress plugins and their development, so I don\u2019t know what rules those follow here.\nRegarding the mentions vs replies, they have to be clearly distinguishable to avoid misunderstandings (see e.g. this example from the Indieweb wiki for how it can go badly), and since it isn\u2019t clear how important a mention is, many prefer to have them displayed as compact as possible. That said, if you prefer it differently I\u2019m sure the plugin devs will add an option for you or tell you what to modify if you ask them for help.\nFrom my understanding, neither the Webmention nor the Semantic Linkback plugins are responsible for setting up microformats markup for your page, they merely add some aspects of it that are part of their responsibilities. Ideally, this is handled by the theme, and there is the microformats plugin which attempts as good as it can to inject the correct markup, but is limited in what it can do. The Indieweb chatrooms (available via IRC, Slack or a web interface) are probabably the best way to get help with that. I\u2019m happy to help figure out what\u2019s wrong with markup, but don\u2019t know enough about WordPress to directly help fixing it." ], "updated": [ "2018-07-07T16:59:00+02:00" ], "published": [ "2018-07-07T16:59:00+02:00" ], "content": [ { "html": "

Yes, totally trusting the claimed url is a potential issue, and e.g. my own webmention handling code only allows it for a whitelist of trusted services like brid.gyi, where I know they intentionally pretend to be a different domain. I\u2019m not involved with the WordPress plugins and their development, so I don\u2019t know what rules those follow here.

\n

Regarding the mentions vs replies, they have to be clearly distinguishable to avoid misunderstandings (see e.g. this example from the Indieweb wiki for how it can go badly), and since it isn\u2019t clear how important a mention is, many prefer to have them displayed as compact as possible. That said, if you prefer it differently I\u2019m sure the plugin devs will add an option for you or tell you what to modify if you ask them for help.

\n

From my understanding, neither the Webmention nor the Semantic Linkback plugins are responsible for setting up microformats markup for your page, they merely add some aspects of it that are part of their responsibilities. Ideally, this is handled by the theme, and there is the microformats plugin which attempts as good as it can to inject the correct markup, but is limited in what it can do. The Indieweb chatrooms (available via IRC, Slack or a web interface) are probabably the best way to get help with that. I\u2019m happy to help figure out what\u2019s wrong with markup, but don\u2019t know enough about WordPress to directly help fixing it.

", "value": "Yes, totally trusting the claimed url is a potential issue, and e.g. my own webmention handling code only allows it for a whitelist of trusted services like brid.gyi, where I know they intentionally pretend to be a different domain. I\u2019m not involved with the WordPress plugins and their development, so I don\u2019t know what rules those follow here.\nRegarding the mentions vs replies, they have to be clearly distinguishable to avoid misunderstandings (see e.g. this example from the Indieweb wiki for how it can go badly), and since it isn\u2019t clear how important a mention is, many prefer to have them displayed as compact as possible. That said, if you prefer it differently I\u2019m sure the plugin devs will add an option for you or tell you what to modify if you ask them for help.\nFrom my understanding, neither the Webmention nor the Semantic Linkback plugins are responsible for setting up microformats markup for your page, they merely add some aspects of it that are part of their responsibilities. Ideally, this is handled by the theme, and there is the microformats plugin which attempts as good as it can to inject the correct markup, but is limited in what it can do. The Indieweb chatrooms (available via IRC, Slack or a web interface) are probabably the best way to get help with that. I\u2019m happy to help figure out what\u2019s wrong with markup, but don\u2019t know enough about WordPress to directly help fixing it.", "lang": "en-us" } ], "author": [ { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Sven Knebel" ], "photo": [ { "value": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/?s=50&d=mm&r=g", "alt": "" } ], "url": [ "https://www.svenknebel.de/" ] }, "lang": "en-us", "value": "Sven Knebel" } ], "comment": [ { "type": [ "h-cite", "h-entry" ], "properties": { "summary": [ "Hi Sven, thanks once more. You\u2019re right I realise, the microformats in my site have been put there by a different plugin, the microformats 2 plugin by the Indieweb WP outreach effort. Its description specifically warns it\u2019s a best guess effort. So I\u2019ll sift through the code of that." ], "name": [ "Hi Sven, thanks once more. You\u2019re right I realise, the microformats in my site have been put there by a different plugin, the microformats 2 plugin by the Indieweb WP outreach effort. Its description specifically warns it\u2019s a best guess effort. So I\u2019ll sift through the code of that." ], "updated": [ "2018-07-07T17:07:55+02:00" ], "published": [ "2018-07-07T17:07:55+02:00" ], "content": [ { "html": "

Hi Sven, thanks once more. You\u2019re right I realise, the microformats in my site have been put there by a different plugin, the microformats 2 plugin by the Indieweb WP outreach effort. Its description specifically warns it\u2019s a best guess effort. So I\u2019ll sift through the code of that.

", "value": "Hi Sven, thanks once more. You\u2019re right I realise, the microformats in my site have been put there by a different plugin, the microformats 2 plugin by the Indieweb WP outreach effort. Its description specifically warns it\u2019s a best guess effort. So I\u2019ll sift through the code of that.", "lang": "en-us" } ], "author": [ { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Ton Zijlstra" ], "photo": [ { "value": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/76dcc1247ccc5575de24bbd382714d387831dc6223c0130cd182a068e6b1678a?s=50&d=mm&r=g", "alt": "" } ] }, "lang": "en-us", "value": "Ton Zijlstra" } ] }, "id": "li-comment-118633", "lang": "en-us", "value": "Hi Sven, thanks once more. You\u2019re right I realise, the microformats in my site have been put there by a different plugin, the microformats 2 plugin by the Indieweb WP outreach effort. Its description specifically warns it\u2019s a best guess effort. So I\u2019ll sift through the code of that." } ] }, "id": "li-comment-118632", "lang": "en-us", "value": "Yes, totally trusting the claimed url is a potential issue, and e.g. my own webmention handling code only allows it for a whitelist of trusted services like brid.gyi, where I know they intentionally pretend to be a different domain. I\u2019m not involved with the WordPress plugins and their development, so I don\u2019t know what rules those follow here.\nRegarding the mentions vs replies, they have to be clearly distinguishable to avoid misunderstandings (see e.g. this example from the Indieweb wiki for how it can go badly), and since it isn\u2019t clear how important a mention is, many prefer to have them displayed as compact as possible. That said, if you prefer it differently I\u2019m sure the plugin devs will add an option for you or tell you what to modify if you ask them for help.\nFrom my understanding, neither the Webmention nor the Semantic Linkback plugins are responsible for setting up microformats markup for your page, they merely add some aspects of it that are part of their responsibilities. Ideally, this is handled by the theme, and there is the microformats plugin which attempts as good as it can to inject the correct markup, but is limited in what it can do. The Indieweb chatrooms (available via IRC, Slack or a web interface) are probabably the best way to get help with that. I\u2019m happy to help figure out what\u2019s wrong with markup, but don\u2019t know enough about WordPress to directly help fixing it." }, { "type": [ "h-cite", "h-entry" ], "properties": { "author": [ { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Ton Zijlstra" ], "url": [ "https://www.zylstra.org/blog/2018/10/wrapping-my-head-around-webmentions-pt3/" ], "photo": [ { "value": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/?s=64&d=mm&r=g", "alt": "" } ] }, "lang": "en-us", "value": "Ton Zijlstra" } ] }, "id": "comment-120779", "lang": "en-us", "value": "\ud83d\udcac Ton Zijlstra" }, { "type": [ "h-cite", "h-entry" ], "properties": { "author": [ { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Peter Rukavina" ], "url": [ "https://ruk.ca/about-peter-rukavina" ], "photo": [ { "value": "https://images.ruk.ca/picture-of-peter-rukavina.jpg", "alt": "" } ] }, "lang": "en-us", "value": "Peter Rukavina" } ] }, "id": "comment-118683", "lang": "en-us", "value": "\ud83d\udcac Peter Rukavina" }, { 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"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/?s=64&d=mm&r=g", "alt": "" } ] }, "lang": "en-us", "value": "Ton Zijlstra" } ] }, "id": "comment-120779", "lang": "en-us", "value": "\ud83d\udcac Ton Zijlstra" }, { "type": [ "h-cite", "h-entry" ], "properties": { "author": [ { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Peter Rukavina" ], "url": [ "https://ruk.ca/about-peter-rukavina" ], "photo": [ { "value": "https://images.ruk.ca/picture-of-peter-rukavina.jpg", "alt": "" } ] }, "lang": "en-us", "value": "Peter Rukavina" } ] }, "id": "comment-118683", "lang": "en-us", "value": "\ud83d\udcac Peter Rukavina" }, { "type": [ "h-cite", "h-entry" ], "properties": { "author": [ { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Ton Zijlstra" ], "url": [ "http://zylstra.org/blog" ], "photo": [ { "value": "https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/659398307081379840/pyAVq5hk.jpg", "alt": "" } ] }, "lang": "en-us", "value": "Ton Zijlstra" } ] }, "id": "comment-118630", "lang": "en-us", "value": "\ud83d\udcac Ton Zijlstra" }, { "type": [ "h-cite", "h-entry" ], "properties": { "author": [ { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Peter Rukavina" ], "url": [ "https://ruk.ca/about-peter-rukavina" ], "photo": [ { "value": "https://images.ruk.ca/picture-of-peter-rukavina.jpg", "alt": "" } ] }, "lang": "en-us", "value": "Peter Rukavina" } ] }, "id": "comment-118644", "lang": "en-us", "value": "\ud83d\udcac Peter Rukavina" } ], "read": [ { "type": [ "h-cite", "h-entry" ], "properties": { "author": [ { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Chris Aldrich" ], "url": [ "https://www.boffosocko.com/" ], "photo": [ { "value": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d5fb4e498fe609cc29b04e5b7ad688c4?s=49&d=https://boffosocko.com/wp-content/plugins/semantic-linkbacks/img/mm.jpg&r=pg", "alt": "" } ] }, "lang": "en-us", "value": "Chris Aldrich" } ] }, "id": "comment-118687", "lang": "en-us", "value": "\ud83d\udcd6 Chris Aldrich" } ], "like": [ { "type": [ "h-cite", "h-entry" ], "properties": { "author": [ { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Gerard van Enk" ], "url": [ "https://twitter.com/gvenk" ], "photo": [ { "value": "https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/983088076611358720/a-rk3SKX.jpg", "alt": "" } ] }, "lang": "en-us", "value": "Gerard van Enk" } ] }, "id": "comment-118631", "lang": "en-us", "value": "\ud83d\udc4d Gerard van Enk" } ] }, "id": "content", "lang": "en-us" }, { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Ton Zijlstra" ], "note": [ "European citizen in a networked world. Based in the Netherlands, living in Europe, working globally. There are no Others. There is just me and many of you.\n\nI write about how our digital and networked world changes how we work, learn, decide and organize. I explore the tools and strategies that help us navigate the networked world. I am passionate about increasing people's ability to act (knowledge), and their ability to change (learning). Key-words: open data, open government, fablabs, making, complexity, networked agency, networked learning, ethics by design." ], "country-name": [ "Netherlands" ], "url": [ "https://www.zylstra.org/blog" ], "uid": [ "https://www.zylstra.org/blog" ], "email": [ "mailto:blog@zylstra.org", "mailto:tonz@protonmail.ch" ] }, "lang": "en-us" } ], "rels": { "profile": [ "http://microformats.org/profile/specs", "http://microformats.org/profile/hatom" ], "microsub": [ "https://aperture.p3k.io/microsub/144" ], "alternate": [ "https://www.zylstra.org/blog/feed/", "https://www.zylstra.org/blog/comments/feed/", "https://www.zylstra.org/blog/2018/07/wrapping-my-head-around-webmentions-pt-2/feed/", "https://www.zylstra.org/blog/wp-json/oembed/1.0/embed?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zylstra.org%2Fblog%2F2018%2F07%2Fwrapping-my-head-around-webmentions-pt-2%2F", 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